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Jill Wiltfong:
Let's take a look at what has become of the frenzy to find work. What feels different?
Katherine Braun:
Dead silence. To even get to like a human person, it's challenging. I just want closure, whether you gave me feedback or not, just say, hey, we want somebody else.
Jill Wiltfong:
Who's better, AI or humans?
Dan Kaplan:
We thought technology would make it easier and in a way it's driving an efficiency, but it's also driving a massive wedge between companies and outside candidates.
[Speaker 1]:
Hey,was gonna ask if you wanted to go to lunch but looks like you've got a ton of resumes to sift through.
[Speaker 2]:
Not at all. I've fed them all to Hal here.
[Hal]:
I am here to serve.
[Speaker 2]:
He'll sort through and find the perfect candidate, won't you, Hal?
[Hal]:
You bet.
[Speaker 2]:
Okay, great, let's get some sushi. See you in an hour, Hal.
[Speaker 2]:
Man, those California rolls were pretty darn good. So, what do you got for me, Hal?
[Hal]:
I did cross reference on 1,541 applications, used my advanced algorithm to sort them. Weighted ranking scales, exact parameters.
[Speaker 2]:
And?
[Hal]:
This is the ideal candidate.
[Speaker 2]:
Four years of excavation experience. Hal, I'm looking for a pharmacologist, not a paleontologist.
Jill Wiltfong:
Hi, I am Jill Wiltfong, Chief Marketing Officer for Korn Ferry and this is "Briefings," our deep dive into topics that corporate leaders need to care about. Don't tell anyone seeking employment that this is a great job market. Yes, unemployment is still low and we're not in a recession, but 40% of job candidates describe their search as frustrating and long, and half say they're completely burned out by the process. Meanwhile, companies are having their own problem with the process. In one survey last year, 93% of hiring managers said they were having problems finding the skilled professionals they need. The issue as always is complex. Technology, on the one hand has enabled more candidates than ever to apply for a single job, which can overwhelm HR departments. In response, many of those departments have turned to new automated screening tools, but they're unsure if the wrong people may be getting rejected from the job. So, with both sides frustrated, let's take a look at what has become of the frenzy to find work.
We start today with someone from the candidate side. Katherine Braun is a senior clinical project manager who's currently on the job hunt and has some frustrating tales to tell. Katherine, thank you for coming on today and sharing your experience with us.
Katherine Braun:
Thank you for having me.
Jill Wiltfong:
Why don't you start out by, tell us a little bit about yourself, your background.
Katherine Braun:
So my background is primarily in clinical research, 17 years I have been in clinical research with medical devices. The last five, six years I've been really focused on project management, so not just managing like individual trials, but multiple trials at the same time for a company.
Jill Wiltfong:
Tell me how long it's been since you were last employed. Talk about how long you've been looking.
Katherine Braun:
It's been about five months. I was laid off November 30th right before the holidays, and I've been actively looking since then with little success.
Jill Wiltfong:
I'm really sorry to hear that. I know it's been a really hard time for a whole lot of people. You've talked about the interview process, and I know that takes much longer than it has in the past. Can you walk me through what feels different in terms of the process 12 years ago versus the process today.
Katherine Braun:
12 years ago, it was pretty fast. I mean, you apply, somebody calls you within a week, everybody's interviewed around the same time, and you have an answer maybe six weeks, five, six weeks. Whereas now it's you apply, two weeks you hear back from HR, another two weeks to schedule a screening with the hiring manager, and then another two to three weeks to get to panel. And then eventually you know, you'll get a phone call, or an email or something that tells you, you have not been selected or not even that.
[Chris Evans as Cole Turner – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
I was just wondering if you wanted to go out sometime.
[Ana de Armas as Sadie Rhodes – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
You wanna get a coffee?
[Chris Evans as Cole Turner – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
Now?
[Ana de Armas as Sadie Rhodes – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
Yes now.
[Tate Donovan as Cole’s Dad – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
Any word?
[Lizzie Broadway as Mattie Turner – ‘Ghosted’ movie]:
She ghosted him.
Jill Wiltfong:
That's a clip from the trailer of the movie "Ghosted" where Chris Evans gets ghosted by Ana de Armas after a date. Katherine, we showed that clip here because it's really an amazing comparison. About by someone after a first date. But now guess how many job seekers said they were ghosted by a prospective employer in the last year? 77%, twice that amount. And you talk about that a little bit, sometimes you hear back after weeks or months, but I imagine sometimes you don't hear anything at all.
Katherine Braun:
Nothing. And sometimes it's with a company that you kind of go through a really fast, really fast, fast process where you're talking and then you're talking with the group and then you're going to, flying down to visit them and dead silence. I mean, we want closure. I mean that's what it comes down to. I just want closure, whether you gimme feedback or not, just say, hey, we want somebody else. And to me that takes a minute.
Jill Wiltfong:
I love the notion of putting the human back in this whole process, it's what we're all about. Over half of US employees say they prefer remote work because of the flexibility it affords, but when it comes to getting a job, you mentioned a distinct downside for you. Can you elaborate a little bit on the downside as it comes to remote working for you?
Katherine Braun:
I mean, part of it is my location, it's California. We have different labor laws, and we have higher wages. And when you have a remote position, you can see one, two, 300 people applying. And just because it's easy, it's like, well, I can work from anywhere, right? But to be able to be distinguished to get to the ATS or whatever they call it, to even get to like a human person, it's challenging.
[Cindy]:
Let's have a look at the cons of using LinkedIn's easy apply method. It's harder to stand out. If something is easy to do, it means a lot more people are going to be doing it, so, there's going to be more and more candidates applying for the same roles, which actually decreases your chances of standing out using this method.
Jill Wiltfong:
That's productivity YouTuber and career coach Cindy Makita Dodd talking about how LinkedIn's easy apply button has made it actually even tougher to get noticed by hiring managers as opposed to maybe easier. Katherine, are there any strategies that you've used? It sounds like you're tinkering and trying lots of different things. Is there anything you've used to help you stand out in the crowd?
Katherine Braun:
So if I know what the company is, because sometimes I'll say easy apply and it'll be a staffing agency. If I know the companies, I'd just rather go to the website and then that way, if I'm interested in the company, the position, then I can go through my two-hour process of actually filling application, cover letter, resume.
Jill Wiltfong:
I'm certainly an optimist, Katherine. So, when, let's say when you land that next job, what's the first thing you think you're gonna do?
Katherine Braun:
Oh my gosh. Well, it depends when I land it I can throw my twins their fifth birthday party.
Jill Wiltfong:
Ah, that's awesome. I am sure we will be celebrating soon. And I really appreciate you joining us. It's nice sometimes to know you're not alone, and you're certainly not alone in the struggle to find work these days.
Katherine Braun:
Agreed. Thank you so much.
Jill Wiltfong:
We've just gotten pretty personal and heard about one candidate's experience in the job market. After the break, we'll be looking at this from a company point of view to learn how firms are addressing this current kind of glut of job applications and let's find out what we can learn from that side of the discussion. Stay tuned.
Rupak Bhattacharya:
Hi, and welcome to this Week in Leadership. I'm Rupak Bhattacharya, and here's a quick look at what else is happening in business.
[Announcer]:
Corporate employees are required to start returning to the office.
Rupak Bhattacharya:
21% of employees say their employer has changed its return to office policy at least once. And 6% said bosses have changed the policy six times or more. Experts say companies need to be more consistent or risk an erosion of trust and culture.
[Announcer]:
An anti-ESG backlash has been gathering steam.
Rupak Bhattacharya:
US investors withdrew nearly $9 billion from sustainable funds during the first three months of this year. The biggest quarterly decline in the sector's history. This is seen to be in part a reaction to recent lawsuits, consumer boycotts and headlines critical of corporate ESG initiatives.
[Announcer]:
A personal AI. And these AIs will be infinitely knowledgeable.
Rupak Bhattacharya:
According to one survey, nearly half of executives said they believe most or all of the chief executive roles should be completely automated or replaced by AI. However, some experts say accountability for decisions still matters and humans provided in a manner that robots can't. For more insights on business and leadership, head to KornFerry.com/insights. Now, back to Jill in our episode, The Frenzy to Find Work.
Jill Wiltfong:
With us now is Dan Kaplan, a senior client partner in Korn Ferry's CHRO practice. Dan, thanks for joining us.
Dan Kaplan:
My pleasure, Jill. So excited to have the conversation.
Jill Wiltfong:
So, Dan, we just got a glimpse into the ordeal that job applicants today are going through. Before we get into how things are from the company side, let's look at the market just overall for a moment. The latest report says that the number of open roles, while still historically high is actually down more than 30% from 2022. And the last 18 months have seen hundreds of thousands of layoffs in white collar and management roles. We've all kind of seen that. Could some of these hiring delays that we're experiencing just be the result of having fewer openings?
Dan Kaplan:
So, I think it's a combination. There's fewer openings, but even many of the openings I suspect aren't real.
Jill Wiltfong:
Okay.
Dan Kaplan:
They're sort of ghost jobs. They were out when companies do their layoffs, usually the first round that hits recruiting pretty hard. And rarely do companies have the discipline to go in and close out all of the open recs that those recruiters had. So even the numbers that exist today are probably inflated with numbers that aren't real. And then you have the challenge that you just don't have enough recruiters to sift through the inbounds.
Jill Wiltfong:
As an experiment, we looked at a posting for a VP job at a major media firm in New York. Had a starting salary of 180,000, had good benefits. In less than a week it had 1100 applicants. Obviously, this is gonna keep growing, that was just in that first week. How do HR departments even begin to handle that load at the scale that they are probably working within?
Dan Kaplan:
Yeah, so unfortunately, you're dealing with HR teams that are grossly overworked. You have recruiting teams that were called early in the layoff, most of in layoffs. Most of them are working on more recs than they can handle. And the good news is technology has allowed it, it made it much easier for people to apply for jobs. It's also allowed between AI and word sifting technology has made it easier for companies to sift through the volume of resumes. Unfortunately, though, what it creates is a disconnect where 1100 apply, very quickly the technology will recommend the two or three who have the most matching words, the recruiter can reach out to those two or three, their job is optimized, but 1,097 are walking away pretty pissed off that they never hear back from the company. And so, we thought technology would make it easier and in a way it's driving an efficiency, but it's also driving a massive wedge between companies and outside candidates.
[Alan Tudyk as Sonny – ‘I, Robot’ movie]:
What does this action signify? As you entered when you looked at the other human? What does it mean?
[Will Smith as Del Spooner – ‘I, Robot’ movie]:
It's a sign of trust, it's a human thing, you wouldn't understand.
[Alan Tudyk as Sonny – ‘I, Robot’ movie]:
My father tried to teach me human emotions, they are difficult.
Jill Wiltfong:
That's Will Smith in the movie "I, Robot" talking to an artificially intelligent robot about what it means to be human. Dan, as you just mentioned, AI is becoming a big player in the job hiring process. I think last time we read it was about 40% of large firms that are using some sort of AI in their recruiting process, often via their applicant tracking system or ATS as we'll sometimes hear it referred to. Talk a little bit more, you mentioned it just a second ago, but how these systems work, how do they screen out the candidates and all those people that are leaving frustrated?
Dan Kaplan:
For sure. So, we went from early use of bullion searches, and you'd look for keywords and then every candidate knew that the more buzzwords they use, the better. Now with AI, candidates are submitting resumes through AI and it's using certain key buzzwords. And then companies have AI that's listening for buzzwords, listening for themes, listening for particular experiences. Unfortunately, it still is lacking the human touch. And so you're still using technology to match technology to find words that jump out as opposed to human beings sifting through experiences, leveraging their judgment to figure out who actually might be the best fit.
Jill Wiltfong:
Let's talk a little bit about bias, 'cause that certainly comes up in this discussion as well. Does AI have biases when selecting candidates? Certainly, we think humans do, right? Who's better? AI or humans that kind of eliminating the bias?
Dan Kaplan:
So right now, it's a hard, it's a toss-up. The problem with AI is was created by humans. And so, the biases that were inherent in the people who created it are now showing up in some of the AI systems. I think it will be programmed differently over the next couple of years, and they'll find a way to get some of the bias out. But for now, the bias that's there are the biases represented in their development teams.
Jill Wiltfong:
So, I guess as we talk about this, when it comes down to it, what do you think firms should be doing first or now to kind of fix the system and the issues that we have?
Dan Kaplan:
So, it's the age-old issue. Companies need to figure out are they gonna reinvest in their talent function and build a big enough talent function that allows them to build relationships in the market, communicate with the outside world, scale the company, or frankly, they should outsource the function and bring in the scale that they need through RPO or other. But if you're gonna keep it in house, you better invest and make sure that you're leveraging technology the right way so that you're not alienating a thousand people for every position you hire. Every candidate, even the ones you reject, should be ambassadors for your brand. And if you're alienating at a thousand a clip, that those numbers spread pretty quickly.
Jill Wiltfong:
One last question and I want the first answer that comes to mind for you. If you had to pick one, would you rather take a time machine and go back to the days of kind of finding a job in the newspaper? Or would you choose the current digital process that we have today?
Dan Kaplan:
I'd go backwards. I miss the human touch, I miss the thoughtfulness, I miss being forced to actually put some time and effort and work in, and even going back to the library basem*nt to microfiche to do some learning on a company. It challenged people to think, to apply, to really invest the time and energy, which we're not doing anymore.
Jill Wiltfong:
Thank you, Dan, so much for your insights. Always really great to get your thoughts.
Dan Kaplan:
Great. Thanks for having me, it's always fun to talk.
Jill Wiltfong:
The Executive Producer of "Briefings" is Jonathan Dahl. Today's episode was produced by Rupak Bhattacharya, Nadira Putri, and Teresa Allan. And it was edited by Jaron Henrie-McCrea. It contains reporting by Russell Pearlman, Arianne Cohen, and Peter Lauria.
Our video segment contains original artwork by Frazer Milton, Hayley Kennell, Jonathan Pink, and Sasha Kostyuk.
Don't forget to read our magazine, available at newsstands and at kornferry.com/briefings. That's it for Korn Ferry “Briefings”. I'm Jill Wiltfong. See you next time.
Can I use Dan again? Can I use Dan again? Is it too soon? Can I use Dan again?
